One consistency in human behavior is a tend to lie about motivations and conceal them behind justifications, such as the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar who claims he saw a mouse and tried to catch it. For this reason, most human arguments can be assumed to be not only wrong but malevolently deflective. One such argument is the “but music is subjective!” trope beloved of the internet’s zombie patrol of angry, isolated, lonely, vengeful and bitter people.
It is commonly used to retard the forward motion of anyone with an actual idea. When you find a great new album, and start talking about it, other people assume — as their glorious Simian ancestry would suggest — that you are attempting to seize power by appearing to be unique and wise. Perhaps you only want others to recognize the greatness of this album, but in their minds, that possibly is made remote. They retaliate by saying, “You might think that’s great, but it’s just your taste. Music enjoyment is subjective and so we are getting every bit as much enjoyment out of this album as you are from that one.”
This territorial response seems consistent across human times and ages. Any new idea is viewed as an incursion into the old, or if a realistic idea, as an assault on the fanciful vision of others which they want us to accept as literal reality. They fear that music might be shared and not entirely personal, because then it no longer serves as an expression for their own self-image. Most of the behavior you see in rock music is fans projecting themselves into the experience, and musicians attempting to use fan projection as a justification for self-esteem, mostly to themselves.
But is music subjective? The term subjective refers to any quantity for which appreciation by the individual is the only measurement. Nothing however fits this description because all quantities relate to something external to the individual; either events in reality, objects or concepts which in some way relate to elements of reality. The idea of subjectivity is in itself totally flawed. Even a priori conceptions are not subjective because they are intuitive and thus not properties of the individual, but pre-exist the individual. This calls to mind the troubling term “appreciation” which implies a type of preference, an action which itself requires an external referent, and also seems a typically human dishonest approach in that to “appreciate” implies enjoying something for its own sake only for the purpose of gatekeeping approval. That way, the individual can say “I recognized that truth, but I only appreciate this notion,” implying a truth-optional and reality-optional outlook. Obviously then the term “subjective” exists as a pre-emptive argument in defense of a choice rather than the reason for the choice itself.
This leaves us with the notion of objective, which in the human use is similarly flawed. Humans — being talking monkeys with car keys — view the objective as the universally recognized as true because it exists in reality. A more accurate assessment shows us that what is objective exists outside of individual humans, or in other words is reality itself. There is then no reason to label it “objective,” since it is merely real. However, the objective/subjective dichotomy arose as a type of euphemistic deflection designed to explain how something can be true and obvious, but appreciated by only very few because the rest are too distracted, narcissistic or physically incapable of the cognitive processes necessary to understand it.
We can then dispense with subjective and objective as a dichotomy, and look toward the question hiding in shadow behind the question that opens this article: is appreciation of music consistent between human beings? That is the definition of objective that people want because it translates into the statement “Beethoven is better than Bieber” not merely “most people prefer Beethoven to Bieber.” If music can be ranked in this objectivist way, then we can definitely say that Darkthrone is superior to Deafheaven or at least of a tier above it. On a social level, music becomes no longer “personal” because we the fans do not create it, or make it cool by our liking it, but discover it as it is and then alert others to that possibility. With “objective” appreciation of music, the music hipster fades away and the hype machine dies out, because both of these rely on projection by fans to make the otherwise unexceptional music they pimp seem important.
Certainly history seems to lean in this direction because the endless stream of favorites from the music labels tend to fade away, but a few bands that stand out seem to persist. History is not infallible because as any student of history knows, civilizations have a life cycle: at some point they start to decay and then die. When this is happening, they forget about all the good music and rush toward the trivial because people need distraction more than quality. In a healthy civilization however if a musician lasts for centuries it suggests something “eternal” about their music, as if it has a value beyond the immediate gratification of those who like it. Research suggests that humans recognize music as having certain attributes independent of culture:
Whether you are a Pygmy in the Congolese rain forest or a hipster in downtown Montreal, certain aspects of music will touch you in exactly the same ways. A team of researchers from McGill, Technische Universität Berlin, and the University of Montreal arrived at this conclusion after travelling deep into the rain forest to play music to a very isolated group of people, the Mbenzélé Pygmies, who live without access to radio, television or electricity. They then compared how the Mbenzélé responded both to their own and to unfamiliar Western music, with the way that a group of Canadians (in not-so-remote downtown Montreal) responded to the same pieces.
This provides a good argument that music can be appreciated across cultures and across ages of a culture because its language is universal. This could explain why some music, such as Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony, find willing audiences across the globe. It also suggests that music which outlasts a generation and finds new fans who are unaware of its social, political and generational significance may possess qualities above the transient. Another source of support for the idea of universality of music comes from Arthur Schopenhauer, who wrote that music expresses pure thought:
That music acts directly upon the will, i.e., the feelings, passions, and emotions of the hearer, so that it quickly raises them or changes them, may be explained from the fact that, unlike all the other arts, it does not express the Ideas, or grades of the objectification of the will, but directly the will itself.
Without getting into a complex discussion of Schopenhauer’s use of the term “will,” we can roughly equate it to thought and awareness in the individual. Schopenhauer believes that music does not convey situations in which the will can be identified, but the will itself, meaning that it translates thoughts into sound and communicates directly. As written about on this site for two decades, music is a communication, in this case a metaphorical one in which can be seen many situations but which belongs to no one specific situation. This can be seen in many cases where musicians thought they were writing about a specific experience or condition, and found that people attributed the music to a broader state which appears in many types of situation. No matter how this is parsed, it reveals that the truth of music is not on the subjective side, and matches what people mean when they say “objective.”
Tags: arthur schopenhauer, music, objective, objectivity, subjective, subjectivity, universality
Since I haven’t been here long, have articles here always come from the perspective of “what I believe is fact, and everyone who thinks otherwise is a mindless zombie?” Just curious because if that perspective has always been, I suppose I can appreciate the continuity of character despite its profound narcissism, but if this is a fairly new construct, what is it about people and the nature of how others filter what life provides for them that has recently made you so fatalistic regarding how you versus the herd utilize your faculties that is now providing this perspective?
Also, not all of the globe is stoked on Beethoven’s ninth. It even causes some people to jump out of windows.
They don’t. Articles either have clear argumentative content, or they do not. They argue their points vigorously if they do.
http://www.uiowa.edu/~c08g001d/Sontag_AgainstInterp.pdf
I guess I don’t understand this argument then. You claim that music is objective, but then say that music is about communication, which allows for human interpretation rather than the cold hard facts of objectivity. Why certain music is popular over others now has more to do with the degradation of levels of communication between people over time. The mystery of musical construction and the desire to explore what is said by melody over lyrical content is gone, and many more people can identify with Bieber over Beethoven because of how he hammers the audience over the head with simple emotive ideas that everyone can relate to. Unfortunately metalheads are no different, and records here are championed for attitude first and music second, which is why orthodox black metal is viewed as infallible, and people within metal are afraid of musical innovation and chastise it by calling it jazz or whatever to give it credence to a supposedly superior understanding of musical construction. People in any genre don’t want explorative music. They want to reinforce what they already like over and over because it gives them comfort in how they chose to identify themselves. While we can discuss what we like in metal and approach what we think is “good” it still is rooted in a genre-specific appreciation and clearly we can’t even agree on choices within that either.
I know a common theme of the site is that individualism is bad and metal and its appreciation are more about something bigger than what a human can appreciate, but stating that music is objective is opinion presented as fact again and is an attempt at boosting ego over content through condemnation of supposedly unenlightened peers, and strikes me as the individualism you are claiming is ruining music appreciation. If you believe in metal, that’s great. But I often think your belief in believing in metal is more important to you.
Glad you brought this up. Let me clarify for all STEM majors worldwide:
Communication does not allow for human interpretation. You either understand the communication, or you do not.
One perception that many humans have is that books like Sense and Sensibility are written as purely aesthetic objects and that readers may project whatever associations and meaning they want onto the book.
This is obvious nonsense. A book has content; the content is being expressed. What most people call “subjective” is failure to understand, which has two sources: (1) inability i.e. lacks the mental wiring to comprehend, such as a 105 IQ person reading the aforementioned book and (2) insincerity i.e. is more interested in self-projection (called “fandom” in the rock and anime worlds) than what is being said.
We wouldn’t say that you can interpret a book of philosophy, or a book of instructions about how to write computer code, subjectively, would we? Just code in C++ however you want man, it’s all arbitrary. Subjective means arbitrary in the way people use it, which negates the point of communication. No one would communicate with a subject who chooses his own interpretation of what is said. That person is a solipsist and the worst conversation partner ever.
I think this is insightful. Degraded ability to perceive has a cause, however, and we might identify that as lack of will to perceive, the “projection” mentioned above.
Which reviews/records did you have in mind here?
What musical innovations do we not acknowledge, and what are they innovating i.e. doing that others before them did not do?
This doesn’t follow from your previous statement about degradation of communication. Either there is communication, or there is not.
Whether we all “agree” or “like” that is nonsense. It’s a modern superstition that you must gain consensus by getting everyone in a room to agree, and that what people “like” is somehow objectively inviolable. No: people usually “like” things for reasons unrelated to the thing.
Explorative music does not exist. Music exists to create an impression that communicates, and while it may expand technique to do so, that rapidly becomes expanding technique for the sake of expanding technique and claiming that content follows when it does not, such as Stockhausen and Cage. You might enjoy Tom Wolfe’s “The Painted Word” essay on this topic.
And to the core of your criticism of the piece:
Opinion is assessment, not argument. Argument is designed to be objective. What objective flaws did you find in the argument?
How do I or others derive some sense of ego boost from putting others down with this article? I don’t think THEY are mentioned, only their errors.
Individualism is solipsism. It denies reality. It ruins everything it touches. On the other hand, if we simply deny solipsism, life gets a lot better starting with clarity of mind. With a choice like that, I don’t see how I could neuter myself into not fighting the insanity. <3
“We wouldn’t say that you can interpret a book of philosophy, or a book of instructions about how to write computer code, subjectively, would we?”
That is precisely why fine art is different than those things. Fine art can be more than a crossword puzzle, it can be a gate to netherworlds. If it is a crossword puzzle to you, fine enjoy it that way then. However, free interpretation can provide much more than what the assumed message or meaning that the artist supposedly embedded in the riddle of the work, and I could argue that one might not have the slightest clue about creativity and imagination to make their own minds about what the work makes them think &/or feel and should not be let near any work of art. Just as you argue that a “person is a solipsist and the worst conversation partner ever.” about free interpreters.
“When we read, someone else thinks for us; we repeat merely his mental process. It is like the pupil who, when learning to write, goes over with his pen the strokes made in pencil by the teacher. Accordingly, when we read, the work of thinking is for the most part taken away from us. Hence the noticeable relief when from preoccupation with our thoughts we pass to reading. But while we are reading our mind is really only the playground of other people’s ideas; and when these finally depart, what remains? The result is that, whoever reads very much and almost the entire day but at intervals amuses himself with thoughtless pastime, gradually loses the ability to think for himself; just as a man who always rides ultimately forgets how to walk.” – Schopenhauer
Brett, what do you have to say about something simple like Michael Jackson which resonates across cultures, literally? Is it just pandering to primitive body rhythm or is there something more there?
I’m not an MJ expert, but the simple answer is that his music is well-executed. It has good rhythm and a reasonable sense of melody that is as much Brit-pop as Motown, and songs tend to reach some kind of peak and leave people with an impression of having migrated between two points of view and possibly back again. There’s a reason MJ beat out many others in the 1980s.
The thing that fascinates me is that Billy Jean, for instance, will be remembered two hundred years from now, but the Biebers won’t be. I’m fairly sure that the Down Unders and the Karma Chameleons will have an audience too but the hip-hop crap won’t. And it’s not like the survivors will have some complexity to them. Why then? What registers in a popular consciousness down the ages?
Billy Jean is a love song that deals with parental issues. It’s catchy, danceable and unlike any hip-hop, deals with a flawed protagonist. The get rich, get bitches philosophy of hip-hop is superficial fantasy that burns out before the song is over and is impossible to relate to the everyman. It just doesn’t age well, since it’s principles don’t deal with the maturity of repercussions.
“get rich, get bitches philosophy of hip-hop”
Going to have to disagree as it’s really only prevalent gangsta rap and G Funk.
Public Enemy, Grandmaster Flash and The Last Poets are just a few that dealt with “issues”. Immortal Technique, Akala and Lowkey are more recent ones who speak about matters that affect people.
Also I’m going to have to disagree with ODB, because the genre has some very hardcore fans pushing underground music so I reckon it will survive.
Sure, progenitors like Grandmaster Flash had something more political to say. Maybe I shouldn’t have said “hip-hop” but I don’t really know what to call whatever the rap on the radio is today.
I think pop fans just want something to dance to that is fed to them by a larger-than-life personality. I like MJ’s music and feel he did have legit talent but who he was is what had chicks fainting at shows. An analogy I can give can be seen in pro wrestling, where Hulk Hogan was ass in the ring for his entire career but his charisma is what had people watching for decades and still causes people to lose their minds when his geriatric ass walks into the ring today. Personality is what keeps people talking, and why we see articles about Varg and D and D here.
I talked about the parallel to this topic in literature with a friend of mine, and it provides a more complex case. The Beat writers, including William S. Burroughs, became known as a “thing” for their behavior more than their writing at first. This does not mean that their writing was bad, except Ginsberg and most of Kerouac, but that their personalities served as a form of marketing.
However, regarding MJ, I’m not sure that is the case. People who have no idea who he is instinctively gravitate toward his songs, and they seem better-constructed than your average pop by a reasonable enough amount to provide a basis for their popularity. It is possible that the explanation is that there are many people with charismatic personalities, but if they manage to back it up with music, then they become the super-stars. Reverse selection bias, if you will.
Varg will remain important for a number of reasons. He is one of the most important musical innovators in black metal, having contributed to Mayhem and Darkthrone as well as influencing Immortal in addition to his main band Burzum. Further, he idealized the black metal philosophy and took it to its logical conclusion, albeit with greater emphasis in some areas than others, and I say this as someone who disagrees with many of his fundamentals. Finally, I think his music and thinking remains not only interesting but relevant and increasingly disciplined. It may eventually lead him out of music and art altogether because those reward the personality drama you describe above more than reasoned, steady, thoughtful work.
Sorry for the poetry, but it’s the best concise explanation of that idea that I can find. Wisdom is not exciting; it is however reliable and calming. Art, at least as most people want it, needs to be dramatic and thus somewhat unhinged internally.
This can be visualized by imaginging two movies, We Learn From History and Do Everything The Sensible Way and It All Turns Out Fine versus Invasion of the Demonic Fecal Toxic Waste Monsters and the Panic That Followed. Which one would you pick to go see on a Saturday night? I’m with the turd monsters.
I understand why Varg is relevant, but Mayhem, Burzum and Darkthrone aren’t creating D and D boards- he is. I’m not trying exactly to separate the man from his art, but the presence of that article on here wasn’t really relevant in being a newsworthy metal piece so much as showing us what he’s up to now- which is fine, report on what you want, I’ll be entertained either way, but it being on a metal site isn’t contributing to the genre so much as showcasing another element of his already very charismatic persona.
It would be difficult to argue that D&D was not influential on black metal!
I never knew that Kipling was into death metal.
Also, does wisdom really lead to everything turning out fine?
“Communication does not allow for human interpretation. You either understand the communication, or you do not.”
So how do you know if you understand something?
Good question with an easy answer: Apply understanding, observe consequences. Lather, rinse, repeat. Also known as the scientific method.
No, they havent.
Objective reality is solely known through perception, and there is no way to confirm intuition is a priori and not arising in the moment solely by interplay of specific input. Yes, concluding that an objective reality exists based on the consistency of this perception (except in certain amongst the insane) is very reasonable; indeed automatic, it is still ultimately conviction and not objective confirmation.
Subjectivity is a way to understand human behaviour and experience. It is definitely a way to understand perception and appreciation of music as well. Just because humans are subjective creatures doesnt mean objective standards dont or cannot exist. Pleasure is not really subjective, differing heights of experience are an objective experience. Its appreciation on an abstract level is subjective however. That again does not mean that people cannot be convinced of what one thinks is right.
Who is fatalistic at this point?
There is a thing called a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian. Ara, you fit that label to the bone.
there is a thing called sycophant, you fit that label to the bone
I doubt that very much. I know what I am, but from whatever I’ve gathered from Ara’s posts, who is a very sensible, coherent person I must say, he seems to have explicitly registered on this site to be contradictory. Opposing opinions are great, but you know what you’re headed for when you come to this website; why the redundant butting of horns then?
Sometimes dissonance just lends itself to a greater need for expression, as made obvious in metal existing in the first place. When I agree with something, I generally don’t feel the need to join in on the pud-fluffing, but if I feel I can point out a perspective that shows why I feel something may not be the case, that is inherently more compelling.
“Pudfluffer” may be the best insult ever created. It integrates sycophancy, submissive sexuality and opportunism in one insult.
High five!
I only argue against a point when I disagree with it. I’ve agreed with plenty of things on this board.
actually no… but you are only complaining about the tone of the article and you are confusing it with its justifications. Typical but erroneous.
Attitude is not the same as content. The attitude here is strident, but the content has argumentative structure, it gives reasons.
I disagree with the content of the article as well. But I’m glad to know that you’re still here to police my comments.
I am still having difficulty with this.
Trying to make an honest effort to understand this Brett but I’m afraid it’s not clicking.
Are human beings not capable of providing a subjective opinion on an objective truth? For example, “It’s raining outside.” (objective) “Yeah, that sucks.” (subjective) and of course another would say, “Rain? THAT’S AWESOME!” and they might say that just because they like the rain or perhaps they’re a farmer and for an objective fact really need it to rain or their crops will suffer.
I can understand that my subjective opinion on something doesn’t really mean anything in reality except to me and maybe a few others who agree with me but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Can it not be true that someone’s subjective opinion exists objectively and can even line up near perfect with objective reality on a lucky guess?
Again, maybe I’m just thinking about it too hard and am confused. Is there a resource on this topic I could pick up at the Library? I’d really like to look into it more.
They are providing reactions in different contexts. The farmer likes the effect of the rain; others like/dislike the rain for its effect. These opinions are not subjective but reflect the intent of those people.
It exists in your mind and in those which hear it. However, it isn’t subjective.
There’s a good introduction to the type of resources you need here:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/beauty/#ObjSub
I wrote my long-winded diatribe right when I woke up which is admittedly when I’m angriest, but after thinking about this debate I’d like to clarify a few points. I used to think music was objective. In high school, being the lone metalhead, I assumed people just didn’t know any better. I thought they hadn’t been exposed to what is clearly a better, more substantial form of music than whatever the radio told them to like. As I’ve gotten older, I started to think that the universal good that I hear in what I believe to be superior music is not understood, let alone palatable to everyone else. A tritone may sound jarring and discordant to one person and soothing to another. As much as I don’t view myself as a solipsist I don’t know how music translates in the mind of anyone but myself. If we can only judge music based on whether the audience gets a clear communication from author to the perceived, I feel that is a limiting way to critique something that has multiple levels of enjoyment. If we break down arrangements, there are tried and true methods of carrying an audience from point A to point B. Pop music works for a reason, and it’s message is often impossible to misunderstand since everything is so glaringly obvious. But does that make pop superior to metal? I don’t think so, but who am I to say? Does liking metal make me better than everyone in my high school that thought it was just noise even after I explained its strengths to many? Not really. I’m just like anyone else- a sack of trash with an open mouth whose wants supersede his needs. I just happen to share a passion for one style of music that many don’t, and that is all.
And in that passion I’ve made music in various outlets for years. I’ve been told by music professors that I’m an incredible songwriter and by random schlubs that I create incomprehensible garbage. Does my perspective or the fact that there are differing opinions make these critiques any less legitimate? Of course not, and with every criticism I attempt to learn more on how to improve. I have just learned that as much as this communication you are getting at is important, what makes people who they are will skew that information, from their personal tastes to their inadequacies digesting things to their mood on the fucking day they hear something. Sense and Sensibility might be a fine piece of art, but if it sits on a shelf unopened it has no value and if it’s read, regardless of story content, if the characters are not relatable to the reader its message is pointless, and as we get older and people change, that will be the case more often than it’s not. Is it well-written on a complex level? And if so, should that be what makes it good? Not really, as shown by technical metal being mostly show off garbage that favors flash over substance.
Sometimes I feel the beat measure for defining “good” in art is determining the multitudes of colors that could be drawn from it across an audience. This directly negates your theory that a clear, consise message is necessary for art to be great, but I think it is why Bieber will fade and Beethoven will not. Interpretation, in my opinion, is necessary for art to be valid, and I don’t feel it makes me an individualistic asshole to say that. I dont think the reason I don’t find myself reaching for Colored Sands because it communicates nothing, as I’ve seen the criticism here. I’m pretty sure Lemay had an entire narrative planned out for that record that he communicated the music through. The reason I don’t reach for Colored Sands is because the melodies and songs don’t resonate with me and I don’t remember anything about it after it’s over. However I do see most people up that record’s ass, so it must be connecting with people somehow, and I don’t think those people are idiots for it.
Something about this article strongly irked me, as I think it would many artists, unless they thought they were the shit. I think what bothers me is that despite it appearing to champion art over the inadequacies of the human condition, it indirectly places ownership of art itself through asserting steadfast positive traits in some above others despite differing outside perception. Which you may not have meant to do, but as shown in my argument, unobscured communication of an idea is not quite possible between two people given the innate need to interpret.
Album X concisely expresses red, richly, as to allow it be interpreted as red’s shades. Definite range confirming center.
There’s two questions here: one is knowing better, and the other is wanting to know better. This raises the question of the purpose of music. Some want a listening experience, where others want to use it to make themselves look cool.
Embracing the human condition involves seeing it for what it is, much like seeing art for what it is. If the argument for subjectivity is “people want different things out of art,” then that’s detracting from the communication, which is possible if people focus on it, and most do, which is how they get something out of some art which persists for centuries.
Here is the root of the illusion. Not everyone has to “get it” for something to be true, and if we wait for what everyone can understand and wants to understand (see first point above), then we’re going to dumb art down to Bieber. Do we want to rise above mediocrity, or embrace it out of fear that some will be left behind?
I’m not going to wait for the collective will of others to assert how I feel about music. I’m just going to continue to like what I like, and others can do the same. Very few, ourselves included, will be open to otherwise.
The unexamined life is not worth living, no?
What does “like” mean?
I remember a friend of mine — quite an accomplished guitarist, went nowhere — who would bring out various albums he “liked.” Primus. Soul Coughing. Phish. Rage Against the Machine.
We used to get very drunk and I’d ask him what he liked about the albums. It turned out to be simple: technical ability on the Primus. Guitar tone on the Soul Coughing. Use of higher harmony on the Phish. Rhythm on Rage Against the Machine.
Unlike most people, this individual was highly articulate, which means that he spent a lot of time focusing on language and how to express himself through it. I don’t think you could get these answers from the average music fan.
What it comes down to then is that “like” means “one or more elements of this music are fascinating to me right now.”
This explains why most people really “like” an album this week, but have forgotten it in ten weeks.
Perhaps we can break down appreciation of music by time, then. “For how long will you like this?”
I’ve always been interested in the longer-term or eternal material. The reason is that it’s easy for me to self-amuse, and so I look for albums that I can throw on for the next five years or longer and still get a lot out of.
The more obvious material — including some of the progressive stuff — often falls short, where others manage to hold up. (What fell away first was The Beatles and, sadly, AC/DC.)
What if the argument for subjectivity is “people get different things out of art, whether they want them or not”? This appears to be what Ara was getting at.
That’s functionally identical to “people are limited by their ability to perceive art correctly, and do it to degrees.”
Thanks Brett,
I had not really considered these points before this and I can feel myself trying to grasp and cling on to what I know.
Perhaps this is breaking through some kind of conditioning my mind has settled in to which is why I’m having difficulty with this. It appears I am just confused on what the actual meanings of the words subjective/objective really mean?
I’ll take some time to read into this more and hopefully it clicks.
It is conditioning.
You don’t sell albums by telling people, “Only some of you will get this.”
You sell albums by working around the problem, selling them garbage and telling them it’s genius. This also has a higher margin as it’s more consistently possible to produce garbage than genius.
Subjective/objective are vernacular terms, by history, and a little analysis shows why: they’re nonsense! “Subjective” means, as far as anyone here has offered, the ability to appreciate crap, call it genius, and defend that choice with the Enlightenment reasoning of appreciation by the individual as an expression of self.
Under this rubric, you can say, “But I like listening to water drops falling in a half-filled sink basin… I enjoy it more than Beethoven… because what I want most out of music is consistency!”
First you said that music is objective because it exists. Then you relied on the anecdotal evidence of pygmies to prove your point. Huh?
If something exists objectively, and can be understood objectively, all you’ve done by understanding it is witness a tautology. How boring.
And you’ve already allowed for the fact people may have different reactions to stimuli based on their circumstances and intent….
There are two parts to this argument: (1) music is objective and (2) the elements of music are not so much universal as a representation in metaphor of experience that is closer to pure nerve impulses than direct allusion. The second reinforces the first by pointing that, given the consistency of perception, musical techniques act in similar ways which enables artists to design communications made out of them.
Sounds like your points are:
1. Music is objective
2. Music is subjectively understood (no body reacts to nerve stimuli in the precisely same way)
3. The fun part is finding the objective truth
The third part is only possible until someone disagrees with you.
We’ve now had about five people mention the consensus fallacy.
Objectivity is not defined by everyone in the room perceiving it.
The point is thus:
1. Music is objective
2. The mechanisms of music are objectively perceived
3. This means it is a communication
4. Individuals can choose “like” as an alternative to quality, but that dodges the issue.
Please, no more consensus fallacies, or at least group them together. They’re the same argument and the most predictable one in this era.
I don’t recall thinking about consensus when I made that post. The thing I wanted to make clear was #2.
I agree with you that people can be wrong when they say Bieber is better than Beethoven. Fuck Bieber. Even if it’s 99.9% of the people in the world who are wrong. I’m not arguing for the lowest common denominator nor proposing that everyone should start listening to reggae and neofolk. My point is that someone’s taste in something is a belief, not knowledge, and so is your/our denunciation of that taste.
Yes, I know, and this is a variety of the consensus argument. “Someone believes this” makes it “valid” or otherwise important. And yet, it isn’t. That’s nihilism.
I’m not relying on consensus to prove my point, nor on someone believing, so it isn’t a variety of the consensus argument.
If you believe in something you are not a nihilist. New norms are created by that process. You, Brett, believe facts are facts and there’s nothing we can do about it. What does that sound like?
I don’t think you understand. Consensus argument is any variant of “if not everyone can perceive it, it is not real.”
Yes, I affirm reality. It is the only sane way to approach life. Everything else is batshit insane. What were you saying?
“Consensus argument is any variant of “if not everyone can perceive it, it is not real.””
That’s not what I was saying either.
“Yes, I affirm reality.”
Everyone affirms reality. But you believe there is no such thing as perspective, which leads you to dogmatism and grand historical determinism and explains why every idea you’ve ever had can be boiled down to “if you disagree, you have an IQ of 105” or “we need someone with the same ideas as me in control of everything somewhere with an IQ of 140”. That is not sane.
No, I just think “perspective” can be measured in degree of error describing accuracy of perception of reality.
Haha this shit is why I keep coming here.
If I can find a way to sell popcorn, I will.
Then explain how different perspectives can all have the same perception.
That last question isn’t useful actually, just ignore it.
I meant to say that perception shapes reality.
Actually I meant perspective not perception, but that distinction may be meaningless.
OK, so we’re looking at this:
Maybe “influences perception of” is more accurate than “shapes.” With this change, the sentence implies both (1) it does not cause perception, but contributes to it and (2) that it does not change reality itself, only how some see it.
To this I say that you’ve answered the question: some people perceive more reality than others. Therefore, it is perceivable. We have choice, so even influences can be denied or mentally circumnavigated; people do this every day when they realize the statements made by their parents were not absolute fact but socially convenient explanations for a child. I would then say that many things influence our perception, including indigestion and top-quality sinsemilla, but we can after the immediate impression sit back, analyze and get closer to actual reality. The rainbow gnomes are not real.
You’re mixing up ideas (~views) with understanding. A scientist, architect or design engineer don’t need “views”. They need understanding in order to succeed.
People with a better understanding of reality and with a high IQ being in charge? Perfectly sane.
A good point. Some thinking is descriptive, meaning that it reveals how our world works; other thinking is prescriptive, meaning that it points to a future direction which should be followed. The best thinking combines the two and picks a realistic future direction that if we follow it will turn out well.
When my grandmother orders a steak at a restaurant, she tells them to “burn it,” and she’s quite serious. So they take the stringiest, toughest cut and burn it to hell. To her, the quality of the meat and the skill of the chef are immaterial to whether she likes the steak. Hell, flavor is probably irrelevant too. She’s so conditioned herself to be revolted by the slightest hint of redness that she prefers a hunk of burnt leather. That’s fine for her if that’s what she wants, but you’d be hard pressed to argue that what she’s a good judge of fine craftsmanship.
Preferences are objective, determined by biology and past experiences.
It is objectively raining outside, but people understand this subjectively. Their understandings don’t differ so drastically, generally, as to have them regard them as subjective.
You largely agree with those around you, that it’s raining. Limited intelligence and language prohibits you from communicating partial disagreements(unsuspected to exist, as rarely communicated, and as of small perceptual variance, reinforcing views of consistency) adequately.
“It’s raining outside” becomes “It’s raining outside, from what I understand of things happening, events, raining and outside”.
Less(and less varying) factors govern your perceptions of the objective, than your preferences.
Subjective and Objective differ by degree, not type.
That’s a polite and evasive way of saying “but not everyone understands it.”
Before and after rain is heavy enough to see, hear and feel, no one realizes that it is raining.
People are unable to be objective about anything concerning themselves and the existence of one single reality does not contradict that.
Great article, Brett.
You summed up great parts of the history of critical theory/aesthetics.
Art must be more than subjective… but the individual experience does lead to an interpretation. However, the hermeneutic code does not alter the validity of the art in anyway, except in advancing theories about that artwork.
Wouldn’t objectivity have to be based on universal agreement?
That’s something that confuses me as well but I think he touched on this earlier.
“Communication is objective” apparently.
Does objectivity mean “agreed on universally” or “universally consistent despite agreement”? If you really don’t know the answer, reread the article; it’s obvious which way Brett uses the word.
Music is a “programming language” that is understood without a “compiler”. Which means universal.
And hearing is the highest sense of the main five senses in the Vedic hierarchy.
=) And Krishna Conscience propaganda says that the best way to serve the Gods during Kali Yuga is to praise them by means of sound.
I’m inserting a fart joke here.
Perdition Temple left you behind.
(“Perdition” can be translated as “fart” from Russian slang.)
Foiled again!
The author has effectively given the middle finger to opinion pimps worldwide and it could not be more glorious. The whole “you’re entitled to your opinion but it’s just YOUR opinion” crisis is the source of all societal dysfunction. The argument will be used as a time saving last resort to forestall a more trivial disagreement (such as the optimal volume for enjoying metal). The bigger questions require something that has recently fallen out of fashion called an “answer,” a little annoyance that at the societal level has for each question exactly one iteration most beneficial for said society, but more importantly, for future generations. I will not expound how this relates to politics as this site is not expressly political.
We are deeply entrenched in denial and questions long having been thought resolved abound. Ideally it would not need to be clarified that the answers can not be efficiently mined requiring input from a pool of 7 billion. The egomaniacal horde hates answers and in their liberated dimentia will require scientific proof for any that deny their right to proceed with whims antithetical to upward mobility. But just because something determined to be true through exhaustive analysis has not yet been proven in the lab does not make it any less true than the sun rising in the east. The reader will be spared jarring illustrations but suffice it to say that “participants in sex involving fecal matter may be able to hold down a job but can not become happy, healthy, posterity conscious citizens” is no less true than “feces is brown” (okay one jarring illustration). We really fucked up when we started requiring proof that eating shit was bad, not only for the individual, but for society. Until humans can establish a foothold anchored in truth our gyrating schizophrenia will proceed in perpetuity.
This site may be the most accurate in acknowledging quality metal, but even more it has taken on the seemingly impossible task of articulating the role music plays as anesthetic and cure at once. Of course it could never be proven in a lab that Motorhead is better than Motley Crue, especially if record sales are the metric. Sure Motley Crue provided training wheels for many who would eventually discover the brainier stuff and therefore may be considered harmless, but 1985 was before we were bludgeoned by the need for clarity. Now it is critical that we have the courage to assert that Motley Crue is okay maybe for nostalgic rotation at the high school reunion but is inferior metal as FACT, not opinion. Otherwise: Girls, Girls, Girls, indeed.
It’s a convenient way to explain away any reality. You notice that society is imploding? “That’s just your opinion, man.”
That’s an interesting observation. Reminds me of what happened with LSD. In the 1960s, it was designed to free your mind. But in the 70s, it became just another party drug that you took to “feel good.” Music is similarly powerful.
I said the Motley Crue thing trying to come up with an 80’s parallel to Darkthrone/Deafwhatever. Not sure of the exact chronology but am assuming they co-opted their early image from Slayer so that would have been a better example but needed something starting with “m”. MC burst on the U.S. scene concurrently with Ratt and both bands ultimately proved impotent after managing to squeak out two albums each of top shelf Camaro metal.
” Metal Up Your Arse…”…
Metallica style or ANUS style
objective or subjective
you decide
we destroy !
Saying that someone is entitled to their opinion and acknowledging it as simply theirs is not the cause of societal dysfunction but the only way to prevent since it entails a maturity in knowing that no two people are going to think exactly the same, and discarding this idea promotes fascism and more a military than a society. Answer-dodging is unfortunately a side effect of the avoidance of offending the loudest whiners but can’t really be applied to music where there isn’t a universal truth. Absolute truth in music would entail that every artist produces a flawless work since no one would stamp their name on a product that they weren’t fully behind and invested in (unless it’s late in their careers and they need cash) and criticism would be pointless too because you couldn’t then say that you could concieve a better way to communicate an idea than the artist did. The idea behind people wanting a absolute truth in music construction is just another extension of wanting to be correct in every aspect regardless of how anyone else feels about an idea. The “reality” you are getting at is a construct assembled over years over music consumption and differing opinion is a threat to an unfortunate misunderstanding of “real” versus “understood.” There is a science to good music construction just as there is a formula to simple math, but in math the integers aren’t avatars for other human-filtered concepts and in music they are. The debate is left in that grey area where we decide to either let music be a simple musical language or a presentation of a bigger idea, which I know even the naysayers of my point of view can acknowledge given the weight of lyrical construct and the musical guidance therein.
The problem with truth-optional societies as you advocate is that they become more militant based not on truth but on denial of it, and this creates instability that requires even greater totalitarian rule — albeit more covert — than the other alternative.
There is no truth in this discussion. You have to stop claiming that there is.
For someone who claims that solipsism destroys everything it touches you sure do deem only your ideas as truth a lot.
There’s a couple important issues here:
Solipsism is that which insists the world reflects the individual, not the other way around. This is the subjectivist viewpoint I’m arguing against.
Two, ideas can be both expressed by an individual and correct. The pair of Ad hominem/Argument from Authority fallacies are two sides of the same coin here: if an idiot accidentally tells the truth, it isn’t wrong because an idiot said it. Similarly, it isn’t automatically true because an authority says it, but it’s also not automatically not-true. It is simply unknown.
With that out of the way, it seems to me clear why I talk a lot about ideas I have: I spent time developing and testing them and believe them to be correct, and in the absence of both credible and accurate counter-argument, see nothing better.
Every idea you’ve ever had necessarily supports the idea that you are right by holding it.
I’ve already told you perspective changes reality. We are autonomous, rational beings working primarily in our self-interest.
A diamond miner dying of thirst in South Africa would trade as many diamonds as he can dig for a clean bottle of water.
Chad from Chadsville USA would trade many litres of water for a diamond to commemorate his wedding.
Two people, two different opinions about water and diamonds, both rational. That there may be a “reality” out there about the true value of diamonds and water is useless to either party.
Stacey likes Bieber over Beethoven because Bieber’s music releases more endorphins into her brain whilst she dances with friends. In her spare time Stacey is a medic who saves lives and the simple, childlike positivity of Bieber makes her happy on days off.
Steve Brettson likes Beethoven because the more intricate patterns show that by liking Beethoven over Bieber he has a hold on universal truth. Steve masturbates full time to Family Guy porn.
A mongoose thinks both artists are useless shite because they get in the way of hunting for black mambas.
Stacey is actually a medic by occupation and not in her spare time away from Bieber but that doesn’t change much.
Reality denial is the primary device of ideologues. “But not everyone sees how that is so, so it must be untrue!”
This is zombie speech. Either the idea is right, or it is not.
Why do you keep making this consensus strawman? Your argument so far has been to rely on a consensus of rainforest pygmies to prove that Beethoven is objectively “better”.
What’s the objectively better molecule? Carbon monoxide or flourine?
Objectively better for what?
Also, while it is true that two points of view may never be exactly the same, if you zoom out far enough the difference is negligible (like rounding off a decimal).
You’ve talked about the tests and studies you’ve taken to come to a realization of unarguable truth, within music and in seemingly every other aspect of life. What are these tests, how objective are they to avoid lending themselves to a self-fulfilling prophecy, and what are the results that are impossible to differ with? Do you feel you have the world figured out? Are you open to learning, or possibly even being proven wrong?
Seriously Brett, you should really consider bird grooming for some extra cash with all the ruffled feathers ’round here.
Some tedious asshole insulted the sacred cow belief of our time:
People want to believe that they can make choices about what to notice, and still be as correct as if they had noticed all of what is required.
It’s a way of sampling some of reality, claiming it as reality as a whole, and using that in a symbolic context to replace reality. Sort of like Nietzsche’s riff on the terms “good” and “evil.”
In which discussion? The whole thing?
On another note, I watched Goodfellas for the first time the other day. A four star movie, considered a modern classic, but left me feeling unfulfilled mainly because it has no real climax. A climax is considered in most cases to be an integral piece of a great movie- a necessary part of the language of film. Yet it wasn’t shown here nor was it in No Country for Old Men, another widely considered great film, not just by the lowest common public but by legit studied film critics. Are these good movies? Am I or the critics “wrong?”
Compare those to “atmospheric” black metal; same issue.
In “No Country For Old Men” the obvious climax – the shootout in which Moss gets killed – is ‘cut out’. I think this wasn’t done to make the film ‘different’ or ‘cool’. It simply doesn’t need to be shown, because the story comes to a conclusion without the shooting scene.
I understand why it was done and doing so places more emphasis on the movie being more about Tommy Lee Jones’ character, but so much of the movie is devoted to the idea of protagonist, antagonist, and consequence that it doesn’t feel just to
omit the confrontation.
“Ends the pretense of objectivity, January 6, 2010
This review is from: Beethoven: The Universal Composer (Eminent Lives) (Hardcover)
Since our modern time is a time of salespeople, our biographies try to convince us how “objective” they are. But nothing about music is objective; after all, to an idiot the best symphony is just frilly noise.”
Quite the change in only 5 years Brett.
What is this from?
Your review of Beethoven on amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/review/R33I9OVW1BF4VU/ref=cm_cr_pr_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0060759747
This is talking about the pretense of journalist objectivity, and makes it clear by the use of the word “idiot” in contrast to “best symphony” that perception does not equal reality.
Right, that’s clear then.
The topic of perfection is at the root of this discussion and a whole nother can of worms. I doubt any human could achieve perfection as there are just too many entropic variables in biology. That’s what spell check is all about.
But are math and physics perfect? Seems like we would not exist if they were anything but. So then is the acknowledgement and pursuit of perfection worthwhile or just “mean”? Considering the seemingly inherent mediocratic drift of the human animal, one might assume the former.
Music is subjective, but you can objectify someone subjective opinion, by challenging knowledge/experience etc
This whole matter is simplified if we think of music as a form of communication signal. It depends on the receiver whether the value contained within the signal gets through or not, being a question of apt decoding. If the decoding process is lacking in some area, the message is scrambled to a degree, and can not be fully understood, leading to a possibly erroneous valuation. The signals are composed by humans for humans, so there is common ground between encoding and decoding. There are extreme examples, such as a person instantly realizing the depths of the cosmos, close, far, above and below through hearing random fart sounds that happened to pull aside the veil behind which eternity awaits the intrepid explorer.
This brings us to the next stage of valuation: is the signal, decoded with whatever capabilities we have, actually worth anything? People obviously value things differently as Phil pointed out earlier, and what is gold to one is crap to another. One signal is about finding a puddle of happiness here and now, sticking your butt into it and closing your eyes (until the wolves come), and other is about preparing yourself for an arduous trek over the mountains, conquering impossible heights so you might find shelter for your family and clan in the valleys beyond. Which is better, you might ask?
Well, that depends very much on your preferences, but reality is not affected by your choice. If you choose to sit in the puddle, fine, but it will not remove the wolves and half of your clan will starve the next winter should you not help find a new home for them. There is nothing inherently “wrong” with choosing this option, it might suit you very well, but consider this: you are “wired” to veer towards this option in this instance. The other signal is preferable to people with a more constructive approach to their life and the lives of their loved ones, and with also a will to work towards their well-being, no matter the hardship they might encounter along the way. They are simply “wired” that way, and could not fool themselves into preferring the first signal.
And so, Stacey needs the happy tunes of Bieber after a day’s work of saving lives, because she could not cope with the stress otherwise. By listening to such music she receives what she needs, what she is wired to need in her present circumstances, but is perhaps deprived of other possibilities via choosing a different form of music.
You would have to assume that both are correct in order to care.
People value things differently; most people are insane, and so their valuation is based in deception, corruption or other activities unrelated to the task.
Using the fact that people have preferences to argue for the legitimacy of those preferences is a begging the question fallacy cleverly disguised.